Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

[hotrodpc]

Long Read, but very worthy.

Written by a by a guy who says, "One of the benefits of working in a morgue is that I get to see what works and what doesn't."




http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm

 

[SilvrSRT10]

If he's working in a morgue, then it all worked.

 

[armoredman]

Evan Marshall's book are very in depth looks into that type of "terminal" ballistics.

 

[hotrodpc]

I've read some more of this myself. I love this guys attitude and all his compasion, or should I say, lack there of, for the BG. (Bad Guy). :waytogo:

The 2 big things I am gathering here which many of us already knew, for Carry Defensive Weapon, .380 and 9mm placement is going to be critical and plan on firing several rounds to be effective and he's not recommending those for a defensive weapon/round. He seems to like .40 and .45, .45 even moreso.

2nd thing, I gather he's saying it's rare to see the benefits of a hollowpoint bullet because the tip is usually clogged with some form of matter before the bullet gets to soft tissue, expand and work as it's intended, even if it's the deceased person's clothing. I had often wondered that myself. I still probably wouldn't give up my tactical hollow points in my carry loaded mags, since the worse case scenario, they'll work like a FMJ at least. There again, on the other hand, because of the cost of Self Defense or Tactical Rounds, most people aren't going to practice with those rounds. I often wonder if that's not a bad idea, to practice with standard cheaper ammo, then just load your mags with self defense ammo. What if you're accurate with your practice rounds, and the Self Defense rounds don't act the same way? Then you're inaccurate when accuracy counts the most. Maybe it's best just to practice with a middle of the road round and also use that as your Defensive Carry rounds. :shrug:

 

[kwo51]

Box of truth .com is good for relating round damage.

 

[hotrodpc]

If he's working in a morgue, then it all worked.

:rofl: That was my first thoughts too. Author says,

"Yes, the 9mm and .380 are the rounds I most often see on the autopsy table, but they're also the rounds that usually require multiple hits to make the kill. The standing joke in the morgue is to guess the caliber by looking at the x-rays. If multiple rounds show up on the x-rays more often than not it's a 9mm or .380 (or .32 or .25 or some mouse gun caliber). If only one round shows up, it could be an inordinately good hit with a .380 or 9mm, but more likely it's a .40 or .45. "

 

[hotrodpc]

Box of truth .com is good for relating round damage.

Is that www.boxoftruth.com ? McAfee didn't like the site and doesn't want to let me in. Have you been there before? Is it a safe site?

 

[cce1302]

I don't carry in order to put people in the morgue. I carry to make them stop threatening my life.

Morgue statistics don't show how quickly the threat disappeared.

As far as practicing with cheap ammo and carrying expensive stuff, that's what I do. There isn't much difference in accuracy between cheap handgun ammo and expensive defense ammo at normal self-defense distances, and what little difference there is is usually in favor of the expensive stuff, not the other way around.


Oh, and before the "hit with a .22 trumps a miss with a .44" shows up, there is no significant inherent difference in accuracy between the two calibers at self defense ranges. If you're that bad of a shot with a larger caliber, you're not going to shoot worth crap with a smaller one, either. Sight alignment, sight picture, trigger squeeze works the exact same way no matter what caliber you're carrying.


theboxotruth.com is the address he was referring to and it's safe

 

[hotrodpc]

Thanks for the web address. I'll be checking it out. I did a search for that info and all I got was a bunch of gore sites with shotgun suicides to the head. Nasty stuff. Those won't be open casket.

You do bring up a good point about accuracy at self defense range, but SD range would also depend on what distance someone is making you a potential victim, but in most cases I'd imagine 10-20 feet should be sufficient. Not even sure you should need sights at that range. Should be like your digital camera. Point and Shoot !!!

I'll agree with I don't carry to put people in the morgue, and I hope I never do. But I will disagree to an extent, and it's not bad, it all a matter of opinion and ours differ. I won't be the guy, "You better stop, cuz I have a gun". If I feel threatened enough to warrant pulling it out, he better be dropping to the ground face first hands out and begging for life or turn and run instantly or he's getting shot. I'm not pulling it to brandish, I'm pulling it out to shoot and I'm not giving him time to think of his next move. It's not a Chess game. It's a very serious critical thinking fast move situation and if I felt that threatened, then it was justified. I do hope other carriers are the same. Carrying is not a game. It's not, I'm a badass cuz I carry, or you better not rob me, look what I got. It should only be pulled ONLY in situations you need it, not as a deterent. If I felt I had to shoot, I don't want to be looking over my shoulder the rest of my life when this guy gets out of the hospital. I also don't want to be the one on trial for manslaughter because I rapid fired 4-5 rounds of a .380 and be accused of excessive force. You didn't have to shoot him 5 times. 1 or 2 would have been enough. Now there's doubt and I'm in legal trouble and going to lose my house and everything I own in attorney fees. You get a druggie stoned out of his mind that isn't thinking right, feeling any pain, he'll still be coming, but now it's up to you to prove that. I'd rather take my 1-2 necessary shots with a .40 or .45 and know it's done. If God's will is for him to make it, then so be it, let him live and hope he's at least paralyzed so I can sleep at night. Honeslty, I truely hope I NEVER get in the situation. I wouldn't feel an ounce of sympathy for the bad guy, but I also know he may have a mom and dad, kids, brothers, sisters, wife even, and because he made a bad decision while under the influence of some drug, all those people will suffer that loss forever and don't deserve it. BUT, my life and my families life is far more important to me than his. We can cry over it later, but I'm going to still be here in that situation.

 

[kwo51]

www.box o truth .com tried to send link but no go. The real question is can you shot while you are running away? Standing still and returning fire is not good unless you have big solid object in front of you.

 

[hotrodpc]

www.box o truth .com tried to send link but no go. The real question is can you shot while you are running away? Standing still and returning fire is not good unless you have big solid object in front of you.

theboxotruth.com is the address he was referring to and it's safe

Try what cce says it is.

 

[kwo51]

Your life will change forever.Average police officer stays on the force 5 years after a good shooting.Every bullet has a Lawyer attached.

 

[cce1302]

I'll agree with I don't carry to put people in the morgue, and I hope I never do. But I will disagree to an extent, and it's not bad, it all a matter of opinion and ours differ. I won't be the guy, "You better stop, cuz I have a gun". If I feel threatened enough to warrant pulling it out, he better be dropping to the ground face first hands out and begging for life or turn and run instantly or he's getting shot.

I did not mean to imply that I would not put holes in someone if they became a threat. I was just saying that my goal is not to make them go to the morgue. My goal is to make them stop being a threat to me and my family. If they end up in the morgue following their reception of my ammunition, it is not my concern. .4" holes in their central nervous system are effective at making them stop what they are doing. It is entirely coincidental that "what they are doing" also includes "breathing" and "living."

:High 5:

 

[Humvee21]

Maybe the 9mm and .380 are just cheap rounds so the shooter can afford to shoot more rounds even if the victim is deceased.

 

[blockdoc]

Oh, and before the "hit with a .22 trumps a miss with a .44" shows up, there is no significant inherent difference in accuracy between the two calibers at self defense ranges. If you're that bad of a shot with a larger caliber, you're not going to shoot worth crap with a smaller one, either. Sight alignment, sight picture, trigger squeeze works the exact same way no matter what caliber you're carrying.

Sort of.

I am not an advocate of mouse guns for self defense.

However, fundamental errors - such as flinching, anticipating recoil, jerking the trigger, and milking - are far more likely from large caliber weapons than small calibers.

 

[blockdoc]

2nd thing, I gather he's saying it's rare to see the benefits of a hollowpoint bullet because the tip is usually clogged with some form of matter before the bullet gets to soft tissue, expand and work as it's intended, even if it's the deceased person's clothing. I had often wondered that myself. I still probably wouldn't give up my tactical hollow points in my carry loaded mags, since the worse case scenario, they'll work like a FMJ at least.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/Webcontent/pdf/2009-8/200981911031-oneproblemtwosolutions.pdf

Now add Hornady Critical Duty to the options.

 

[kwo51]

Mouse in the pocket better than 357 at home. More people killed with 22 than any other.IMO

 

[cce1302]

Sort of.

I am not an advocate of mouse guns for self defense.

However, fundamental errors - such as flinching, anticipating recoil, jerking the trigger, and milking - are far more likely from large caliber weapons than small calibers.

:thumbsdown:

Fundamental errors are a result of poor fundamentals/poor training.

It's a mental issue, not an equipment issue.

We have an active thread right now ridiculing bob costas for blaming the gun for crime, yet somehow it is appropriate to blame the gun for poor training? I don't think so.

 

[cce1302]

Mouse in the pocket better than 357 at home.

.357 in the pocket is better than a mouse gun at home.

It's a training/mindset issue, not an equipment issue.

More people killed with 22 than any other.IMO

A worthless statistic without any reference.

Do you have any statistics on how long they survived after being shot, and what damage they did to the person who shot them before succumbing to their wounds? Unless I'm mistaken, this discussion is about self-defense weapons, not murder weapons.

Reagan, for example, survived being shot with a .22 pistol long enough to ban the importation and manufacture of machine guns for civilian ownership.

 

[hotrodpc]

http://www.americanrifleman.org/Webcontent/pdf/2009-8/200981911031-oneproblemtwosolutions.pdf

Now add Hornady Critical Duty to the options.

Nice. Seems Hornady directly addressed the issue of hollowpoint clogging, even by clothing.