Voters may see guns at polling places

cce1302

Full Access Member
Here's something going on in my neighborhood.

http://kokomotribune.com/local/x699448478/Voters-may-see-guns-at-polling-places

By Maureen Hayden and Scott Smith CNHI MEDIA

INDIANAPOLIS — Don’t be surprised if you see somebody with a handgun at your local polling place this November.

A 2011 state law that barred local governments from enforcing their own gun restrictions also covers many public buildings where people go to vote.

Indiana Secretary of State Connie Lawson says the law is clear: Unless the polling place falls under the few exemptions in the law, legal gun owners have the right to openly bear their arms while they vote. “That matter has been settled,” Lawson said.

But it’s not quite been put to rest.

Last month, a Zionsville attorney who’s built a law practice as the unofficial enforcer of the 2011 law, filed a lawsuit on behalf of a northern Indiana man who was turned away from his polling place in a fire station during the May primary election after he refused to take off his holstered handgun.

Guy Relford thinks his client was a victim of ignorance of the 2011 law and predicts similar incidents may occur with the November election.

“I routinely get calls from people who say their local officials and local law enforcement don’t know or understand the law,” Relford said. “But ignorance is no defense.”

The law in question, known as Indiana’s firearms preemption law, prevents local political subdivisions from having their own firearms ordinances.

When it went into effect in July 2011, it also did away with local laws that prevented legal gun owners from carrying their weapons into public places like libraries, parks, city halls and fire stations.

The law exempts courthouses and schools, where firearms may still be banned.

Second Amendment rights advocates say the law was written at least partially to head off a looming ban on assault-style weapons in Gary.

Patrick Graham, a retired Kokomo Delco worker, said the Gary law would have made criminals out of otherwise law-abiding gun owners.

Even with the new law in place, however, carrying a gun into a polling place is bound to create controversy.

State Sen. Jim Tomes, a Republican from Wadesville who authored the law in his freshman year as a legislator, said it was intended for people like Relford’s client: Clay Edinger, a retired Marine and Iraq War veteran who is working on his master’s degree in theology and studying to become a military chaplain.

When Edinger went to vote, with his holstered handgun in plain view, he had a copy of the law with him, but was still turned away.
 

TheFuzz

Full Access Member
Do they not have concealed carry in your area? That's one of those things that brings to light an obvious question:

"I can....but really, should I?"

I'm all about carrying, but I prefer concealed carry. Especially at a polling place, of all places, where you know there will be people of all political walks of life that may or may not know or understand the laws. Walking around with a gun on your hip without a badge to go with it is asking for ignorant folks to overreact, and it really just puts you at more of a disadvantage all the way around.

Cover it up (if legal) or leave it home, IMO.
 

SWSS

Full Access Member
Do they not have concealed carry in your area? That's one of those things that brings to light an obvious question:

"I can....but really, should I?"

I'm all about carrying, but I prefer concealed carry. Especially at a polling place, of all places, where you know there will be people of all political walks of life that may or may not know or understand the laws. Walking around with a gun on your hip without a badge to go with it is asking for ignorant folks to overreact, and it really just puts you at more of a disadvantage all the way around.

Cover it up (if legal) or leave it home, IMO.
agreed, just because I can open carry in TN doesnt mean I plan to stroll through the polling place...I can see it now, I am on CNN or MSNBC being accused of using voter intimidation...investigated started by Obama's DOJ hunting dawgs...
 

cce1302

Full Access Member
For any of you guys that normally carry for protection, how do you determine when it is safe not to carry? Or do you just not carry because someone else has the opinion that there are places that you shouldn't carry?
 

oppo

Full Access Member
Rights not used will become rights lost. I understand where some of you are coming from but the moment we make choices based on the ignorance of others or what they might find offensive, we give those people power over us. Why should you have to hide something that is your right? We have relinquished far to many rights already.

As for leaving it at home, why on earth should I, supposedly a free citizen, have to disarm and be at the mercy of others?

Legal open carry isn't the problem, ignorance and corruption are.
 

TheFuzz

Full Access Member
I agree with you. But unfortunately, the world we live in is plagued with crime, violence, and ignorance. This is why I believe that open carry is stupid - it draws way too much attention to yourself, and makes you an automatic target (for both bad guys and the folks that don't know what to make of it). I'm all about exercising your right to carry, as I mentioned, but you need to ask yourself if it's worth it and ensure that you are in full possession of the facts regarding not only the laws about open carry, but other laws that may affect the outcome for you. The last thing you want to do is get a summons (or worse, get arrested) because while open carry is legal, you scare enough sheeple at a polling place to get charged with "inciting panic" or some other charge, depending on where you live.

Like I said, you might legally be allowed to, but applying a little common sense goes a long way. Our rights are but a few federal signatures away from being lost. Advocating gun ownership and responsibly arming yourself without being flagrant about it is the best way to keep those rights intact. Standing there thumping your chest going "I'm carrying because I can, screw these ignorant wimps" is a pretty irresponsible mindset, IMO, and doesn't do anything to help the cause. I'm not saying that anyone here is that far off the map, but those folks are out there and bring more discredit to gun owners than anything else - they are the ones making headlines for stupid crap.

My department ID says "Commissioned Officer - Concealed Weapons Authorized". I can carry wherever I want, but it has to be concealed. There is a reason for that. If CC isn't an option for you where you live, then of course I'm all about being armed rather than not...just know what you're getting yourself into when you put that gun on and walk out of the house with it.
 
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cce1302

Full Access Member
I agree with you.
interesting way to start your post when you go on to disagree with everything he said. any particular reason you have done that?
But unfortunately, the world we live in is plagued with crime, violence, and ignorance. This is why I believe that open carry is stupid - it draws way too much attention to yourself, and makes you an automatic target (for both bad guys and the folks that don't know what to make of it).
Have you ever openly carried out of uniform and seen how much attention you get? I'm guessing you haven't, since you claim that it draws too much attention. I've noticed that 99% of the time, the only attention I get for open carrying comes online. Nobody in real life cares. I get a lot more attention when I'm with my four-year-old daughter, but I can't keep her out of sight just because she draws attention.
Oh, and do you have any examples of a citizen being targeted automatically by bad guys because he was openly carrying?
I'm all about exercising your right to carry, as I mentioned, but you need to ask yourself if it's worth it and ensure that you are in full possession of the facts regarding not only the laws about open carry, but other laws that may affect the outcome for you. The last thing you want to do is get a summons (or worse, get arrested) because while open carry is legal, you scare enough sheeple at a polling place to get charged with "inciting panic" or some other charge, depending on where you live.
and how do you think that I ought to close the gap between me and the people who see guns only on TV, being used only to commit crimes? They're going to see guns whether we wear them openly or not. Would you rather they see only the hollywood/liberal media propaganda that tells them that all guns are bad and they should be outlawed, or is it okay to let them see a guy doing the things he normally does with his family, voting, grocery shopping, going to the zoo, etc., and realize that guns aren't going to jump out and shoot them? And why does the opinion of a police officer in Colorado matter to a citizen in Indiana?
Like I said, you might legally be allowed to, but applying a little common sense goes a long way. Our rights are but a few federal signatures away from being lost. Advocating gun ownership and responsibly arming yourself without being flagrant about it is the best way to keep those rights intact. Standing there thumping your chest going "I'm carrying because I can, screw these ignorant wimps" is a pretty irresponsible mindset, IMO, and doesn't do anything to help the cause. I'm not saying that anyone here is that far off the map, but those folks are out there and bring more discredit to gun owners than anything else - they are the ones making headlines for stupid crap.
From what I understand, this lawsuit in the OP is not about "I'm doing this because I can" it's about "I'm doing this because you (the agents of the county government) can't do what you did because it's against the law." While we citizens who carry guns need to know the law, it is even more important for officers to know the law and enforce the law and not their opinions that they have no legal basis to enforce.
My department ID says "Commissioned Officer - Concealed Weapons Authorized". I can carry wherever I want, but it has to be concealed. There is a reason for that. If CC isn't an option for you where you live, then of course I'm all about being armed rather than not...just know what you're getting yourself into when you put that gun on and walk out of the house with it.
Actually, by your department ID, you don't have to keep your gun concealed, unless there is already a department policy on it. If there is a department policy stating that you may not open carry, then that is what requires you to conceal, not the authorization to conceal found on your ID.

Unless there is a department policy stating that you must keep your weapon concealed while you are off duty, then you fall under the same law as the rest of us. Since there is no Colorado Revised Statute that bans open carry, then open carry is legal (except as provided by C.R.S. 29-11.7-104 and, it seems, in Denver, if I'm reading your preemption statute correctly).

Indiana is pretty cool about that, though. Indiana law does not differentiate between concealed carry and open carry. We have a license to carry a handgun, not a CCW permit or Concealed Pistol License. Some police in Michigan have had to learn that just because someone has a CPL does not mean that they are not allowed to carry openly. In fact, in Michigan, it is legal to carry openly without any license whatsoever. I wish all the states were as cool about open carry as Michigan and Arizona, instead of getting all worked up over it.
 

SWSS

Full Access Member
For any of you guys that normally carry for protection, how do you determine when it is safe not to carry? Or do you just not carry because someone else has the opinion that there are places that you shouldn't carry?
usually i dont carry because of work locations and other reasons. I personally do not have any childlike notion that it is safe to never carry but other indications do require me to exercise my adult portion of my brain (hurts, I know).
for example, today i walked two kids into school (yeah, I can drop them off at the curb and they walk right in but I am an active parent that travels 50 out of 52 weeks of the year), then before getting back home, i had to pay a visit to a pharmacy (cant always beat the gene pool), now I am at home and surrounded by the sweet smell of gun cleaner and the sights there of. This afternoon I will again make a return visit to the same two schools and pick up the same two kids, so I will not carry again.

I was fully loaded when we went on vacation last week, noone will screw that up!

Guess that is the great thing about the land of the free, because of the brave, exercing rights (so far) is still just that my right. Besides I paid the fee, completed the background and shot the targets to prove to them I am a responsible adult.
This forum happens to be a great place to "meet" and greet a lot of really cool people with really cool action accessories that have the same general mindset.
that being said, I personally would appreciate not seeing you nit-pick and berate someone just because they choose to not exercise their rights the same way you do (above about the fuzz response). you made the first post and opened the door so what did you expect? when I feel like I am getting baited by someone into a no reason debate, my built in ignore button kicks in.

Not an opinion, just stating the way I feel and I posted this because I support this forum and our ability to take time to agree to disagree.
 

cce1302

Full Access Member
usually i dont carry because of work locations and other reasons. I personally do not have any childlike notion that it is safe to never carry but other indications do require me to exercise my adult portion of my brain (hurts, I know).
for example, today i walked two kids into school (yeah, I can drop them off at the curb and they walk right in but I am an active parent that travels 50 out of 52 weeks of the year), then before getting back home, i had to pay a visit to a pharmacy (cant always beat the gene pool), now I am at home and surrounded by the sweet smell of gun cleaner and the sights there of. This afternoon I will again make a return visit to the same two schools and pick up the same two kids, so I will not carry again.

I was fully loaded when we went on vacation last week, noone will screw that up!

Guess that is the great thing about the land of the free, because of the brave, exercing rights (so far) is still just that my right. Besides I paid the fee, completed the background and shot the targets to prove to them I am a responsible adult.
This forum happens to be a great place to "meet" and greet a lot of really cool people with really cool action accessories that have the same general mindset.
that being said, I personally would appreciate not seeing you nit-pick and berate someone just because they choose to not exercise their rights the same way you do (above about the fuzz response). you made the first post and opened the door so what did you expect? when I feel like I am getting baited by someone into a no reason debate, my built in ignore button kicks in.

Not an opinion, just stating the way I feel and I posted this because I support this forum and our ability to take time to agree to disagree.

I haven't nitpicked or berated anybody, or even told them that they are wrong for not exercising their rights like I do.

Obviously, it's okay to disagree with people, because you are posting that you disagree with me. I'm not offended by that.

I hope that one day we won't have to think ahead to where we are going (such as a school) and plan to not carry simply because the federal government wants us to be victims there. We are getting closer in some states with "peaceable journey" laws that allow us to drive on school property to drop off or pick up kids with firearms in the car, but we're not there yet.

I support your right to choose to be unarmed at any time or place that you wish to be unarmed. I do not think it is a good idea to let peer pressure make that decision for me.
 

Arckadian

Active member
I have noticed that your statement about people not caring if you open carry or not may be subject to the state you are in. Here in OOOOOtah if you open carry the odds of you having a little chat with the police are much greater. Open carry here is not illegal, but it is also not encouraged either. Open carry here is not something I see a lot of. I think in the many years I have been here I have only seen one person open carry that was not a cop and that was for a CC class.

I am sure that in some states Open Carry is not as....... unwelcome as it is here. But I do agree with the Fuzz. If you open carry here I have seen a lot of people that could have their weapons taken from them and get shot and not even notice what is going on because of various situations. Its almost like an open invitation to take the weapon and shoot the person that has it. I am sure that in some instances open carry wont matter.... Out hunting some where or camping. but in a city environment, I am not sure that is a very wise idea depending on what your job is and what sections of the city you are forced to work in. Taking a weapon to gang territory while open carrying is just plain stupid.

Now I am in that last sentence refering to someone like asy a bus operator. the route just takes em through it, but they are open carrying.... Disaster awaits them. Just my two cents on the subject.
 

TheFuzz

Full Access Member
Well, you strike me as an interesting character, but I'll play along for a few minutes and address some of your comments.

interesting way to start your post when you go on to disagree with everything he said. any particular reason you have done that? Have you ever openly carried out of uniform and seen how much attention you get? I'm guessing you haven't, since you claim that it draws too much attention. I've noticed that 99% of the time, the only attention I get for open carrying comes online. Nobody in real life cares. I get a lot more attention when I'm with my four-year-old daughter, but I can't keep her out of sight just because she draws attention. Oh, and do you have any examples of a citizen being targeted automatically by bad guys because he was openly carrying?

I "did that" because while I'm a pro-2A individual, I'm also a realist, and know what kind of world we live in. I actually have open carried quite frequently in a shirt and tie for court/DOR proceedings and off duty functions, and I don't care for it at all. Do people "care" when they see my firearm? I don't know, nor does it matter. Do they notice my gun before just about anything else? Yep. One thing I try to keep a close eye on all the time are people's eyes and hands, especially when carrying out of uniform. More often than not, the first thing they pick out is the gun on my side. It's out of place compared to what a normal person looks like, and their gaze naturally gravitates toward it.

Moving on...you can't keep your daughter out of sight because she draws attention? Wow. You couldn't have made a more apples to oranges comparison. Having a child with you and having them draw attention simply because they are acting like a typical child is a night and day difference compared to the range of possible reactions to an openly carried firearm. I've never met anyone who is deathly afraid of a child. I have, however, encountered many people who refuse to even be in the same room as a gun.

Do I have any specific cases that I've worked involving someone who has been targeted simply because they were openly carrying? Nope, sure don't. I have, however, seen what a drug addict will do for $10 worth of meth. If you don't think that an addict can get desperate enough to severely hurt or kill you for whatever is in your wallet, think again. Also think about what your nice, shiny openly carried firearm would be worth to them on the streets. The motivation is certainly there for them to remove that firearm from your person, by whatever means necessary. Besides that though, I'm just one person. Just because I haven't seen a specific case doesn't mean they don't exist, nor does it mean that everyone will simply leave you alone just because you're armed. That kind of thinking is a false sense of security at it's worst.

and how do you think that I ought to close the gap between me and the people who see guns only on TV, being used only to commit crimes? They're going to see guns whether we wear them openly or not. Would you rather they see only the hollywood/liberal media propaganda that tells them that all guns are bad and they should be outlawed, or is it okay to let them see a guy doing the things he normally does with his family, voting, grocery shopping, going to the zoo, etc., and realize that guns aren't going to jump out and shoot them? And why does the opinion of a police officer in Colorado matter to a citizen in Indiana?

So you open carry to...educate people? That's your motivation? Ok, let me ask you this: Do you honestly think that the average anti-gun person will associate you carrying a gun with ANYTHING positive? Are you so naive that you think some magic lightbulb is going to go off in their brains and they will start thinking "WOW, guns are normal, how could I have been so wrong for all of these years?!"? I believe in free agency - people have the right to choose what they want to do and how they want to go about doing it (within reason, of course). You wearing a gun openly to "close the gap" between non-gun owners and yourself might actually make it bigger if you run across someone who doesn't like guns, never will, and doesn't want to be around them. Ever think about that? Weak argument for open carry if you ask me.

How else are you going to bridge the gap then? Hmm, lets see. Have you ever though of maybe becoming an instructor through the NRA and educating people through classes? Or how about organizing a shooting club at your workplace/church/etc. specifically aimed at getting novice shooters or people who don't normally associate themselves with firearms out to the range to try it out? How about just talking to people you know who aren't into guns, and trying to find ways to introduce them to the sport? There are a plethora of things that you could do, those are a few examples. I think education about firearms in general is sorely lacking at pretty much all levels in this country, but if you think that strapping on a gun and walking the streets is going to somehow create a paradigm shift all by itself, then I'm sorry but you're on a different planet than the rest of us.

Also, you're right - my opinion is just that, an opinion. But the fact that you think it shouldn't matter or that I'm somehow not entitled to weigh in on a public forum speaks volumes about your overall mindset and attitude.

From what I understand, this lawsuit in the OP is not about "I'm doing this because I can" it's about "I'm doing this because you (the agents of the county government) can't do what you did because it's against the law." While we citizens who carry guns need to know the law, it is even more important for officers to know the law and enforce the law and not their opinions that they have no legal basis to enforce.

You're correct again...but unfortunately I wasn't speaking about the OP. I was talking about the reaction that you and a couple others in here seem to be leaning toward.

Also, in reference to the laws, I said "depending on where you live", which most people would interpret as "laws vary from state to state, so be careful". How you can extrapolate that into police officers enforcing their opinions rather than the law is beyond me, but your anti-cop attitude and bias has been pretty apparent from the beginning - that comment just made it blatantly obvious.

Actually, by your department ID, you don't have to keep your gun concealed, unless there is already a department policy on it. If there is a department policy stating that you may not open carry, then that is what requires you to conceal, not the authorization to conceal found on your ID.

Unless there is a department policy stating that you must keep your weapon concealed while you are off duty, then you fall under the same law as the rest of us. Since there is no Colorado Revised Statute that bans open carry, then open carry is legal (except as provided by C.R.S. 29-11.7-104 and, it seems, in Denver, if I'm reading your preemption statute correctly).

I never said one way or the other about law vs department policy, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to "correct" me about my own department regulations and state laws. Thanks for clarifying something I am already intimately familiar with, though! :High 5:

Indiana is pretty cool about that, though. Indiana law does not differentiate between concealed carry and open carry. We have a license to carry a handgun, not a CCW permit or Concealed Pistol License. Some police in Michigan have had to learn that just because someone has a CPL does not mean that they are not allowed to carry openly. In fact, in Michigan, it is legal to carry openly without any license whatsoever. I wish all the states were as cool about open carry as Michigan and Arizona, instead of getting all worked up over it.

That answers some questions for me, but raises others. You have the option to carry concealed, you just choose not to? Is that accurate? Personally, I'd rather have my gun on me without advertising it to the world, that way I can access it if needed and not have to worry about it otherwise. Our mentalities are obviously very different, but in picking apart everything I said, it seems as though you have taken my opinion personally for some reason. You've made an awful lot of assumptions, and taken some interesting cracks at me. I have responded in kind, but be advised that my intention was simply to air my opinion, not get into a pissing match with you. I've never been able to resist a good debate though. :)

Let me ask you a few questions, maybe you can educate me a little about your overall mentality regarding open carry vs concealed carry. No sarcasm or snide remarks, this is purely a legitimate set of questions based on my own curiosity.

Why do you carry a gun?

Do you always carry it openly? If so, why?

Do you feel that open carry is better than concealed? If so, why?

What do you feel the disadvantages are of open carry?

If you have legitimate answers to these questions, please enlighten me.
 
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TheFuzz

Full Access Member
I haven't nitpicked or berated anybody, or even told them that they are wrong for not exercising their rights like I do.

Obviously, it's okay to disagree with people, because you are posting that you disagree with me. I'm not offended by that.

Curious statement from someone who asked me why my opinion should even matter. Just saying.
 

cce1302

Full Access Member
Well, you strike me as an interesting character, but I'll play along for a few minutes and address some of your comments.



I "did that" because while I'm a pro-2A individual, I'm also a realist, and know what kind of world we live in. I actually have open carried quite frequently in a shirt and tie for court/DOR proceedings and off duty functions, and I don't care for it at all. Do people "care" when they see my firearm? I don't know, nor does it matter. Do they notice my gun before just about anything else? Yep. One thing I try to keep a close eye on all the time are people's eyes and hands, especially when carrying out of uniform. More often than not, the first thing they pick out is the gun on my side. It's out of place compared to what a normal person looks like, and their gaze naturally gravitates toward it.

Moving on...you can't keep your daughter out of sight because she draws attention? Wow. You couldn't have made a more apples to oranges comparison. Having a child with you and having them draw attention simply because they are acting like a typical child is a night and day difference compared to the range of possible reactions to an openly carried firearm. I've never met anyone who is deathly afraid of a child. I have, however, encountered many people who refuse to even be in the same room as a gun.
Interesting. I've never encountered anyone like that. It seems to stem from hate, rather than fear, in my experience. I have encountered people who are deathly afraid of heights. My dear old mom couldn't even stand looking at me climbing a tree when I was a kid. I was a roofer to put myself through college in spite of my mom's unnatural fear. Would I expect people to stop working on roofs, in trees, up in a cherry picker because my mom and many other people have an unreasonable fear? No, and I don't think it's proper to ask people to pretend guns don't exist because people have an unnatural fear either.
Funny story-shortly after I had a similar conversation to this on a different gun forum, someone posted a thread with a youtube video of a guy climbing a tower (I don't want to muck up this post with even more, so here's the title rather than a link: Climbing Towers 1768 foot ). The responses in that thread were very telling. Some guys said they broke out in a cold sweat. Some said they had to turn it off because they were sick to their stomach. Some said just watching the video made them dizzy. Crazy responses, actual fear. Yet not a single guy suggested that nobody should climb towers, or even that the video should not have been filmed or posted.
One more anecdote: a good friend-he's in his late 50s- and his wife; He and I were planning to go shoot skeet that week and his wife overheard (we were at church). She rolled her eyes and said something about "what are guns good for..." I smiled and said "for sport and protection." I must have had a look on my face that made her curious because she looked at me funny and said something like "you're not carrying now...are you?" and I replied "You've never seen me at a time when I was not carrying." She was shocked at first, but then realized that I had been a normal, reasonable person for as long as she had known me, and that a normal, reasonable person could be a person who carried a gun to protect myself and my family. That was over a year ago and we're still very good friends.
Do I have any specific cases that I've worked involving someone who has been targeted simply because they were openly carrying? Nope, sure don't. I have, however, seen what a drug addict will do for $10 worth of meth. If you don't think that an addict can get desperate enough to severely hurt or kill you for whatever is in your wallet, think again. Also think about what your nice, shiny openly carried firearm would be worth to them on the streets. The motivation is certainly there for them to remove that firearm from your person, by whatever means necessary.
Yeah, I have a friend who is a recovering heroin addict. The stuff he did to get heroin is insane to a normal person. He told me he would run inside lowes or home depot and grab an armful of power tools and run out the door with them. Once he was so strung out he tried attacking a guy, but couldn't even finish. He got beat up and just laid on the ground until the cops got there and put him in jail. Sometimes it was random: he'd just mug the next guy he saw walking on the sidewalk; sometimes it was planned like lowes or home depot. We've proven that drug addicts do crazy things, but not that it's any less safe to open carry.
Besides that though, I'm just one person. Just because I haven't seen a specific case doesn't mean they don't exist, nor does it mean that everyone will simply leave you alone just because you're armed. That kind of thinking is a false sense of security at it's worst.
and that argument is called a straw argument. Well done.
So you open carry to...educate people? That's your motivation?
No, I open carry to protect myself and my family. Having positive conversations about guns with people who wouldn't expect me to carry is just an added benefit. I'm not worried about the vehemently anti-gun, but I've been asked a few times "Are you a police officer" and answered "No, I just protect my family." I have always had a positive response to that. "Good idea" or "the world is getting crazier, I understand" or "I can see why you'd do that" are typical responses.
Ok, let me ask you this: Do you honestly think that the average anti-gun person will associate you carrying a gun with ANYTHING positive? Are you so naive that you think some magic lightbulb is going to go off in their brains and they will start thinking "WOW, guns are normal, how could I have been so wrong for all of these years?!"? I believe in free agency - people have the right to choose what they want to do and how they want to go about doing it (within reason, of course). You wearing a gun openly to "close the gap" between non-gun owners and yourself might actually make it bigger if you run across someone who doesn't like guns, never will, and doesn't want to be around them. Ever think about that? Weak argument for open carry if you ask me.
You first say "average anti-gun" then go to describe extreme anti-gun. I'm not worried about the extreme anti-gunners. The only thing that might change their mind is a crime happening to them personally where they can see the value of having a gun. anything else happens "to someone else." Again, I'm not arguing for open carry as a means of education, only pointing out that education happens whether we like it or not. Since the antigunners get all the fuel they need from watching the news and CSI, it's certainly not going to hurt when a guy walks around the grocery store with his three kids, greets the employees by name, since he's been going there for years, and is generally a normal person.
How else are you going to bridge the gap then?
Bridging the gap is not my goal. My goal is to protect myself and my family, but then I've said that before.
Hmm, lets see. Have you ever though of maybe becoming an instructor through the NRA and educating people through classes?
Sure I have. Have you? What's your point?
Or how about organizing a shooting club at your workplace/church/etc. specifically aimed at getting novice shooters or people who don't normally associate themselves with firearms out to the range to try it out?
Yup, I've thought of that, too.
How about just talking to people you know who aren't into guns, and trying to find ways to introduce them to the sport?
Yeah, I've thought of that, too.
There are a plethora of things that you could do, those are a few examples. I think education about firearms in general is sorely lacking at pretty much all levels in this country, but if you think that strapping on a gun and walking the streets is going to somehow create a paradigm shift all by itself, then I'm sorry but you're on a different planet than the rest of us.
I think that's a mighty straw argument you've just set up and knocked down there. Well done.
By the way, if you want to get into a urination competition about who educates more people about guns, you're welcome to do it, but this is actually a thread about whether or not police in Indiana can break the state law that says they can't regulate firearms. Maybe we should get back there.
Also, you're right - my opinion is just that, an opinion. But the fact that you think it shouldn't matter or that I'm somehow not entitled to weigh in on a public forum speaks volumes about your overall mindset and attitude.
I never said you aren't entitled to weigh in; I was only getting at the fact that Colorado law and police practice doesn't influence Indiana law.
You're correct again...but unfortunately I wasn't speaking about the OP. I was talking about the reaction that you and a couple others in here seem to be leaning toward.

Also, in reference to the laws, I said "depending on where you live", which most people would interpret as "laws vary from state to state, so be careful". How you can extrapolate that into police officers enforcing their opinions rather than the law is beyond me, but your anti-cop attitude and bias has been pretty apparent from the beginning - that comment just made it blatantly obvious.
Police officers enforcing their opinion was a reference to what they did in the incidents referenced in the OP.
My response is too long so I have to break it into two posts.
 

cce1302

Full Access Member
Continued from above:
I never said one way or the other about law vs department policy, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to "correct" me about my own department regulations and state laws. Thanks for clarifying something I am already intimately familiar with, though! :High 5:
I was looking for clarification on that. Which one is correct? Is it a written department policy that you must keep your gun concealed off duty? Or are you assuming that open carry is prohibited because it isn't explicitly allowed? Here's what you said: "My department ID says "Commissioned Officer - Concealed Weapons Authorized". I can carry wherever I want, but it has to be concealed." That really seems to imply that the words on your department ID that permit you to conceal were what prohibited you from open carry. By the way, if you are asserting that you have to carry concealed when you're not in uniform, how do you reconcile that with the post where you said: "I actually have open carried quite frequently in a shirt and tie for court/DOR proceedings and off duty functions, and I don't care for it at all."
That answers some questions for me, but raises others. You have the option to carry concealed, you just choose not to? Is that accurate? Personally, I'd rather have my gun on me without advertising it to the world, that way I can access it if needed and not have to worry about it otherwise. Our mentalities are obviously very different, but in picking apart everything I said, it seems as though you have taken my opinion personally for some reason. You've made an awful lot of assumptions, and taken some interesting cracks at me. I have responded in kind, but be advised that my intention was simply to air my opinion, not get into a pissing match with you. I've never been able to resist a good debate though. :)
Yes, that's accurate. Please don't let anything I say about my choice to open carry make you think that I am trying to tell anyone else they should open carry if they don't want to.

I do think this is a good debate. point/counterpoint makes for good, thorough discussion.
Let me ask you a few questions, maybe you can educate me a little about your overall mentality regarding open carry vs concealed carry. No sarcasm or snide remarks, this is purely a legitimate set of questions based on my own curiosity.

Why do you carry a gun?
to protect myself and my family
Do you always carry it openly? If so, why?
no
Do you feel that open carry is better than concealed? If so, why?
both give me the means to protect my family. When I'm open carrying, I also have another one concealed, so I guess that's an advantage. Having two guns on me is better than only one. I could do that if I were carrying concealed, but I normally don't.
What do you feel the disadvantages are of open carry?
getting detained by police officers who don't know that open carry is legal; rehashing the same points over and over online to people who have never said anything to me about it in person.
If you have legitimate answers to these questions, please enlighten me.

Yeah, I know a negative tone creeps into my responses, but I've been addressing these same questions for about 5 years now after I first weighed both sides of the discussion myself. Any gun forum that has been around any length of time has probably been through the discussion dozens, if not hundreds of times.
 

Arckadian

Active member
As I read all the recent posts I would like to ask that we try to keep things civil here. I believe that point and counter point have their place but, some of the responses can be viewed in a really negative light. I understand that you say you have had this argument many times in the past, but again I feel that the tone is more combative/confrontational than it needs be. If you wish to continue this please don't let me stop you, but I will encourage the use of the PM system here. :D
 

TheFuzz

Full Access Member
Fair enough. I will refrain from going line by line then; clearly cce1302 is a gun carrying citizen that does so responsibly for the most part, albeit with some key differences in mentality compared to myself and others. I'm not going to address the "straw argument" comments - if he wants to live on the outer edge of the law and social norms, then contacts with LE should be expected by him as opposed to resented, as he seems to be making it sound, and would be completely justified. A basic investigatory stop into a person openly carrying a firearm is completely warranted in Colorado. Maybe it's different in Indiana. I doubt it but I don't know.

I will address some things that I was asked to clarify though, and make one comment of my own.

1. Regarding my department ID - yes, policy requires that OFF DUTY (meaning off duty and not drawing income as part of a department assignment - ie just out with my family) requires that my handgun be concealed.

2. When referring to off duty assignments and court proceedings/department functions, I was referring to things that I get paid for through the department which are not part of my normal work week. Those and some other functions require a shirt and tie. Other assignments require khakis and a polo shirt. Whatever the requirement outside of the normal uniform, that clothing then becomes the "uniform of the day" and since I am being paid for a department function and "in uniform", the concealed carry rule is no longer a requirement. "Off duty" (not working) and "off duty assignments" (working, but outside of my normal paid work week) are two different things.

Thanks for answering my questions. Those were the answers I expected for the most part, but I do find it interesting that the only disadvantage about open carry that you felt compelled to list was getting detained by cops who don't know the law, and debating with people online. Perhaps it's just the area where you live, like Arckadian was mentioning, that makes you feel that kind of comfort level. Maybe you were being facetious. If so, stop reading here. However, if you really don't see any potential risks other than those, then I would ask that you re-evaluate your mindset just a touch. Disarming someone with a gun is not as hard as you might think. It's even easier for people who practice it on a regular basis, like some criminals do. Complacency will get you hurt or killed eventually; same goes for me and anyone else that carries a firearm regularly.
 
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cce1302

Full Access Member
Fair enough. I will refrain from going line by line then; clearly cce1302 is a gun carrying citizen that does so responsibly for the most part, albeit with some key differences in mentality compared to myself and others. I'm not going to address the "straw argument" comments - if he wants to live on the outer edge of the law and social norms, then contacts with LE should be expected by him as opposed to resented, as he seems to be making it sound, and would be completely justified. A basic investigatory stop into a person openly carrying a firearm is completely warranted in Colorado. Maybe it's different in Indiana. I doubt it but I don't know.

I will address some things that I was asked to clarify though, and make one comment of my own.

1. Regarding my department ID - yes, policy requires that OFF DUTY (meaning off duty and not drawing income as part of a department assignment - ie just out with my family) requires that my handgun be concealed.

2. When referring to off duty assignments and court proceedings/department functions, I was referring to things that I get paid for through the department which are not part of my normal work week. Those and some other functions require a shirt and tie. Other assignments require khakis and a polo shirt. Whatever the requirement outside of the normal uniform, that clothing then becomes the "uniform of the day" and since I am being paid for a department function and "in uniform", the concealed carry rule is no longer a requirement. "Off duty" (not working) and "off duty assignments" (working, but outside of my normal paid work week) are two different things.

Thanks for answering my questions. Those were the answers I expected for the most part, but I do find it interesting that the only disadvantage about open carry that you felt compelled to list was getting messed with by ignorant cops, and debating with people online. Perhaps it's just the area where you live, like Arckadian was mentioning, that makes you feel that kind of comfort level. Maybe you were being facetious. If so, stop reading here. However, if you really don't see any potential risks other than those, then I would ask that you re-evaluate your mindset just a touch. Disarming someone with a gun is not as hard as you might think. It's even easier for people who practice it on a regular basis, like some criminals do. Complacency will get you hurt or killed eventually; same goes for me and anyone else that carries a firearm regularly.
Yes, I think we can both agree that someone who is carrying can be disarmed, and it's good advice for those who carry openly or concealed.
Being disarmed, ambushed, or becoming complacent is not something that can happen only to those who are open carrying; on the contrary, many non-OCers become complacent, get ambushed and disarmed, just as you point out is possible for OCers.
If I gave the impression that my state of awareness is any less when I open carry than when I carry concealed, or that I thought open carriers should be complacent or unaware of their surroundings, I apologize for that.
 

TacticalAdvantage

Full Access Member
Guns should be carried for personal defense, not Activism.

I will start by saying, I fully believe in and support the 2nd Amendment. I believe we all have a God Given Individual Right to keep and bear arms that the Government Shall Not Infringe. I also believe that Open Carry is covered under the 2nd Amendment. I also believe, and teach, that with that right, comes Responsibility. Responsible gun ownership, and Responsible Carry, enhances the relationship between Law Enforcement and the Gun Owners, but Irresponsible Owners, and Irresponsible Carriers, are detrimental to that relationship. So with that in mind, I bring you the following.

Irresponsible Open Carry Activism Jeopardizes The RKBA

The best way to do that 99% of the time is Concealed Carry. Even if people do choose to Open Carry, they shouldn’t do it to provoke confrontation nor be uncooperative with the police while doing it. It makes gun owners look bad, turns cops against us, wastes their valuable time and certainly isn’t going to make it more likely that people will think “oh, gun owners are normal people, not trouble makers.

Spread the Word. Most people have realized that the time for “solidarity” through tolerance of the guys carrying guns with video cameras has come and gone. Their bravado is jeopardizing our RKBA and should be seen as an embarrassment to responsible gun owners. When the OC Movement started, people carrying while going about their daily business to show responsibly armed people are part of everyday life, it made some sense… but, the extremists have spun out of control. Let’s make sure that the firearms community is condemning this behavior.

I am not calling for a change in laws or for us to ostracize people who carry openly in a responsible, civil manner. Perhaps responsible OCers should be most concerned and the most openly critical of those who are using their guns to get (inevitably negative) attention?
Obviously, I am a proponent of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms and do not want to to see OC made illegal, but I fear that will happen more and more often, in more and more places (as it already has it one state), if the confrontational actions of a very few reckless people continue.
 

oppo

Full Access Member
At the same time, let us not make excuses for those who disregard the law and the rights of others, especially when those people are in a trusted position of power.
 

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